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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Tue, July 28, 2009 - 3:46 PMI have them periodically at www.BurnClub.info -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, July 29, 2009 - 10:39 AMawesome.. how can i meet up with you? Thanks for the reply!! -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, July 29, 2009 - 3:45 PMWell, I run the place, so, show up, I'll be there. -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Thu, July 30, 2009 - 8:43 AMso its wed nights right? I just want to make sure because I have kids and I will need a to get a babysitter to get out there. Can we plan on meeting up there next wed? Let me know thanks -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Fri, July 31, 2009 - 1:49 PMI run burn club, I have to be there....
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 11:55 AMHey, saw you were interested in fire breathing and also that you have recieved a reply on classes. Just wanted to give you some helpful advice on this subject before you meet up with the people who will teach you:
First you should practice in the shower. The key to successfull breathing is to develop a fine mist of the fuel from your mouth. Take in a mouthful of water in the shower. Practice blowing it out of your mouth to produce a fine mist. DO this by keeping your lips tight and use your tongue to push the water out of your mouth slowly while exhaling very hard. you dont want a spray, but a fine mist of water.
Also practice not breathing in for a couple of seconds after you breath out the mist. VERY IMPORTANT. In practice this will give the chance for the fire to consume the fuel before you inhale it, you dont want to burn your face, nostrils, lungs or set the fuel still left on your face or in your mouth on fire.
You must also remember to spray your fuel in an upwards direction as heat and fire rise, do not blow downwards or you will burn yourself. As with all fire performance keep your hair covered or at least well contained.
Keep in mind that fire breathing is one of the MOST DANGEROUS fire perfomace skills to learn and perform. The common fuel, lamp oil(purified, unscented and uncolored), is toxic. you do not want to breath it in, swallow it or use it too often in one night( I limit myself to about 5 mouthfuls per night). Risks are poisoning, chemical pneumonia, cancer(prolonged use) and of course burns.
Also lamp oil will dry our lips and face around your mouth severely(and will last for days if not cared for immediately). Make sure to bring water, lip balm(not chapstick) and lotion with you when you learn or perform this skill.
Good luck and stay safe. -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 12:07 PMNicholas, please don't give fire breathing classes online when local fares are available. It's bad enough that chick on You Tube is public. While most of what you said would be contained in a good firebreathing lesson, you've only laid out a small part of the danger and the safety. AND like so many people, you've tossed in a little country wisdom that's actually adding danger.
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 12:29 PMAdendum to my previous post:
In no way do I recommend fire breathing without formal training from an experienced teacher.
Please understand that my advice is meant only to prepare someone BEFORE attending a formal class on fire breathing, to get a jump on what you might learn there. I recommend practicing with water in the shower only to be more prepared for the formal lessons and to practice technique BEFORE lessons.
The advice and infomation I gave was meant only as a primer and as information for proper equipment to bring with you before learning from a professional.
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO LEARN FIRE BREATHING ON YOUR OWN, IT IS VERY VERY DANGEROUS!!!!
There are many many dangers involved with this skill, other than what I mentioned in my previous post, and proper training is required to do it safely and even with proper training it is STILL VERY DANGEROUS.
Tedward, I appologize if my post seemed to be an attempt at online training, my intent was not so. I merely wanted to help her be prepared, and have proper supplies, for the formal training she would get from a local facility.- also please enlighten me on the "country wisdom" I've given as I do not know what you are referring to and if my infomation/knowledge is a hidden danger I would like to know
Thanks and play safe. -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 1:01 PMLip balm. Most are flammable, almost all contain veggie oils now. Veg oil is known to accelerate the absorption of alkanes into the body. -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 1:59 PMDuely noted- Are you serious?
A few points/facts:
Alkanes=Parafins (for those who dont know)
Lamp Oil=Liquid Parafin
Parafins are not water soluable as it they are hydocarbons. All hydrocarbons are proven carcinogens(ie they cause cancer). Other common hydrocarbons include gasoline, motor oil, butane, white gas, natural gas et al.
A common ingredient in almost ALL drugstore lip balms is PARAFIN WAX as well as vegie lipids. Ever use vasaline, blistex or chap stick lip balms? Therefor if you put lip balm on EVER you are applying Alkanes directly to your mucous membrane, a highly permeable membrane of the body's largest organ, your skin. The few exceptions to this rule are the higher priced cosmetic brands found at department stores and cosmetic specialty stores.
One's mouth is composed almost entirely of mucous membranes, as are nasal cavaties, lungs and your nether regions. Direct obsorption of chemicals through one's mucous membranes is one of the surest way to guaruntee that it will be obsorbed into your body(and bipass your body's first line of defense against foreign sunstance(your digestive tract), second only to intravenous injection. Smoking and snorting drugs use the mucous membrane as a drug delivery system(as do some other graphic methods).
If you are putting liquid parafins in your mouth(as in fire breathing), you are knowingly applying alkanes in concentration directly to your mucous membrane. In addition because it is not water soluable you are swallowing some of this parafin(alkane) even if you rinse your mouth out repeatedly with water.
A thin coating of lip balm after you finish and clean up from fire breathing does not put you in any further danger of absorbing the carcinogenic alkanes than you have already heavily exposed yourself to, but it can aid in the prevention of severely chapped lips.
Your argument is tantamount to suggesting that a heavy smoker not breath the air on a high smog day for fear of increasing thier chance of developing cancer. Don't you think this is a bit silly?
Sorry to flame a bit about this but the fire community is so full of people with rediculous safety info that it drives me crazy. Please do your research and be totally informed before you subscribe to someone's "safety" info.
PEOPLE, FIRE IS DANGEROUS, PERIOD. IF YOU PLAY WITH FIRE AND CARINOGENS YOU PUT YOURSELF AT RISK FOR ALL TYPES OF HEALTH PROBLEMS.
Always shower after playing with fire to remove the chemicals from your body. Always launder your clothes to remove these chemicals from them too.
Be as safe as you can be and don't pass along erroneous safety info into the community -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 2:38 PMYes, by all means, do research before listening to people's silly safety suggestions. My Research is posted on the NAFFA site, I have two studies showing that vegie oils increase absorption from 5% to 60% when taken within an hour before or after exposure to long chain alkanes. It is for this reason that most lip balms have started moving away from paraffin, and have migrated towards glycerine. Long-term build-up of paraffinic compounds in the mouth reduces the capacity for hydrophilic migration of water to the outside surfaces causing chronic dryness for the lips. Good for business at first, bad once people figure it out.
Trust me, I've done SO much more research on this topic than you.
Lamp oil =/= parrafin in all cases.
Not all hydrocarbons are carcinogenic, some are biologically neutral, like mineral oil. Thiols are sulferated hydrocarbons that form the basis of almost every scent known to man.
And while you may not fear a 1000% jump in absorption of compounds into the body that the body has no direct way to eliminate, I would not encourage others to be so flip about it. I've seen the direct effects of absorption. I'm working with a surgeon to get clinical studies on the subject.
Before you spout off more nonsense, I implore you to take this to PM. -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 3:16 PMShow me the 2 studies you have conducted? Have they been evaluated by the FDA or any other sceintifically recognized institution?
Your response says nothing to the fact that you are willingly consuming parafin when you breath fire. 5%-60% is not much difference when the ammount of parafin on your lips after fire breathing is miniscule in comparison the the ammount coating your mouth and throat and the ammount you involontarily swallow every time you take a mouthful of parafin.
Again, your argument, even if the numbers you state are true, is about as rediculous as airbags on a motorcycle. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 3:38 PM... the ONLY way to substantially reduce your exposure to these compounds is to limit your fire breathing activities. This is not an activity that one should do on a daily or even a weekly basis.
I am not trying to start a flame war here, you are obviously knowledgable about fire arts or you wouldn't be teaching workshops. The point I am trying to make is that by participating in this activity you expose yourself to dramaticall high concentrations of chemical compounds your body is not designed to ingest.
I dont suggest usning lip balm prior to or during your performance. I advocate it after you have cleaned up your face thoroughly with soap and water to aid in the prevention of chapped lips, that is all. -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 3:50 PMCorrection to the following statement I made
"... the ONLY way to substantially reduce your exposure to these compounds is to limit your fire breathing activities. This is not an activity that one should do on a daily or even a weekly basis. "
You can eliminate your exposure by using food products like corn starch for fire breathing but these pose other risks.
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 4:00 PM.. but what you ARE doing is releasing a bunch of partial information packets to the entire world. Incomplete safety information, some of which can only be taught in person, is the fastest route to major pain. I advocate learning it all, not just how to safely do a single pop... in /this/ environment, with /this/ wind, etc. You say that breathing downwards will get you burned, I have numerous videos proving you wrong. I agree, that beginners shouldn't try to breathe downwards, and that include 99% of the people who are currently professional fire breathers. But it's not that it can't be done, nor that it can't be done safely, it's that you shouldn't do it without advanced skill. And those skills should be based on a wide spectrum of good habits. Very few of which, are listed in this thread.
But some yahoo reading the confidence in your tone might take what you first typed here as scripture and figure they Don't need to worry about veggie oil, they Should use lip balm as a preventative, they don't need a spotter, a wipe cloth, an extinguisher, safe training, predictable wind, proper carburation, mist control, favorable wind direction, etc, etc, etc. THAT's what's bothering me. I don't mind fencing with you, I DO mind it happening publicly.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 3:47 PMNo, you don't get it. You absorb typically 5% of all long chain alkanes, ingestion of veg oil increases the rate to 60%. And though the balm may be only applied to the lips, we're not sure how much is necessary to unlock the increase of fuel and where the ingestion happens. If the presence of any veg oil open lipid doors acting as floodgates for the alkanes, then, yes, it's a problem
And all this ignores the fact that the simplest of safety devices can utterly prevent the necessity for balm: a wipe cloth. Your late suggestion of a shower isn't a bad idea either. Here's one reason why:
tribes.tribe.net/fire-brea...f0ac0952b9
Research
W.H.O. studies on affect of mineral oil www.inchem.org/documents/...v10je08.htm
W.H.O. combination of 14 studies on this effect: www.inchem.org/documents/...48aje08.htm
I assume the World Health Organization is a responsible enough entity.
...and having survived a motorcycle accident where my leg was trapped in the handlebars, I can imagine that an airbag might have done some good, properly placed. -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 4:27 PMHold on, I do get it, sorry if the language of my previous post mislead you about my comprehension of the issue. I get that you are talking about an alkane absorption difference of 1-5% for no vegetable oils versus 60% with vegetable oils. This is indeed a 1200-6000% change, but if you take the fact that you will be wiping your mouth with a rag to remove the vast majority of the parafin from your lips, there is such a small ammount left if compared to the ammount that coats your mouth and throat and the ammount you swallow. If you can show me that the absorption from trace amounts on your lips is even close to the ammount you are exposed to in your mouth throat and stomach then your point is valid.
I have read through your studies and I see no reason to extrapolate their findings to the use of lip balm after fire breathing:
www.inchem.org/documents/...v10je08.htm
- This study does not test the effects of vegetable oils on the absorption of alkanes. It is a study of mineral oils as food additives and tries to determine whether consumption of these alkanes is dangerous.
It does show that when lab animals were "injected intraveinously" thier bodies absorbed 1-5% of the alkane it was injected with. There is no comparison here to animals that were also fed or injected with vegetable lipids, so this study does not support your claim.
www.inchem.org/documents/...48aje08.htm
Likewise this study does not test the effects of vegetable oils on the absorption of alkanes, and in fact is uses the previous study as part of it's data.
Maybe I am missing the parts of these studies which deal with the effects of vegetable oils on the absorption rate of alkanes into the body. It appears these studies can only be judged valid for consumption purposes, not for topical purposes.
Further, I never said anything about neglecting to wipe your mouth after spitting, that should be common sense. But the combined act of wiping your mouth and the parrafin preventing moisture from reaching the surface of your mucous membrane causes really dry lips for many people. It is for this reaon that I recommend a lip balm AFTER cleaning up a bit.
Your statement that lip balm will compound the absorption of parrafin by 6000% is purely conjecture and there seems to be no scientific evidence to back it up. If I have missed the part of either study that that supports your claim please quote the paragraph so I can look at it better. -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 4:37 PM"Common" Sense isn't all that common. You'd think it was, but it's not. Remember, most people scanning the web to learn fire breathing no NOTHING at all about it. I knew a breather who only did volcanoes because the fuel residue would rain down on him and turn him bright red by the end of the show. needless to say the habit lead to tears, but even when told it was a bad idea, he wouldn't listen.
From the first study:
"For food purposes usually liquid
petrolatum or liquid paraffin are employed which consist essentially
of n-alkanes and some cyclic paraffins. They are chemically inert
especially as regards the straight chain alkanes and on ingestion most
of the mineral oil (98%) remains unabsorbed in the faeces. There is
evidence now that small amounts of mineral oil (2%) are absorbed as
such by the intestinal mucosa and are distributed throughout the body."
"Ten rats were each fed a total of 17 g liquid paraffin in 18 g
olive oil over 16 days mixed into their normal diet. Some 65% was
absorbed as estimated from faecal loss."
this study is an update on the findings they found when I first started quoting them. The WHO wasn't involved then, it was a CDC thing. -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 4:54 PMVolcanoes? Not familliar with this. Also I agree that many people trying to learn this skill are for lack of a better term "retarded" and will attempt to do dangerous things on thier own. This is not limited in any way to fire arts. This is also how natural selection works.
Ok so I read back through the report and found the info on the rats you quoted.
There does not seem to be any "control" study on rats using only mineral oil for the same period. Nor do I see anything referring to the "within 1 hour" statement you made on this subject. This study is not very conclusive it is merely suggestive of a relationship. Obviously more study is needed to reach a real conclusion on this matter.
Regardless of this information this study was conducted to evaluate consumption of mineral oils, not effects of topical use. It is irresponsible to extrapolate this information, which is suggestive at best, to topical concerns. If you want to play it safe and not use lip balms after spitting then that is your perrogative. You shouldn't present this theory as fact until it has been sceintifically proven. Simply suggeting that it MIGHT be a concern to your students is a better practice. For my own part I'd rather not deal with a week of severly chapped lips and so I will continue to moisturize after breathing.
That being said I suggest you question a toxicologist on whether or not this is any real concern. I'm sure that when presented the facts of the activity he/she would agree that the ammount you willingly consume from this activity is of far greater concern than the small ammount you might absorb from your lips.
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 5:39 PMLook, you're in LA, come on down to Burn Club and do some of this FTF. -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 5:47 PMFTF?
I might swing down sometime, I'll check out your site. -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 6:13 PMVolcano = fire breathing done straight up rather than at some angle south of up.
FTF = Face to Face
LOL = laughing out loud
Netiquette = www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html
Net Acronyms = www.netlingo.com/acronyms.php
Smilies = www.smiliesunlimited.com/
;) -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Wed, September 9, 2009 - 11:21 PMaight- got it, looked it up after a minute or two.
You are a funny one. -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Thu, September 10, 2009 - 12:45 AMToo bad funny -lookin' don't count....;/
;D -
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Re: Fire Breathing Classes in LA?
Tue, September 15, 2009 - 2:15 PMI can say that this was one hell of a discussion. Very informative. I have been breathing fire for about a year, never got taught, never watched a video, only reading. I have never used any kind of lip balm or chapstick before or after I breathe. I have gotten the ultra pure rash once from breathing more upward than I should have. Stuff like wind, and safety materials are a plain given. I fyou don't think of that stuff, well, you shouldn't even be playing with fire. I have ONLY used Ultra Pure Lampoil because of the fact that whitegas or a mixture has too low of a flash point... which brings fear to my eyes. This happened at the last gathering I held in Long Beach. Someone showed up, saying that they have done fire breathing before, and of course I believed him since he seemed so confident. Then I realized when he breathed and the fire went strait to his mouth and caught his face on fire that this was a serious issue. Thankfully we did have a safety and burn kits available. I asked him afterward what he was using, and he said whitegas and paraffin. I asked him who had told him to use this, and he said the person who taught him. I said that he should not fire breathe for awhile and go back to his teacher and tell them that they are not doing very well at teaching, and that the fluid he was using was not proper for his level of performance. I myself am still scared and probably will never use anything but UPL. The point is, safety IS a HUGE deal in any fire arts. And I thank you both for the awsome information, wheather it be write or wrong, I have gained some knowledge today from this post. PEACE!
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